Rookie
Reg Date:
October 20, 2002
Num Post: 9
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| How in the world can Chang receive both marks and be represented as being "saved"? I know the books says he was "forced" to receive the mark of the beast, but the Bible says you can't serve 2 masters or have both marks. You really should have had Chang stand for God and become a Trib Saint. I mean, this IS fiction, isn't it? Not everything in these books are in line with the Bible. Is that the case? Should these books be seen as "fiction" and be left at that? | |||||||||
Rookie
Reg Date:
August 19, 2001
Num Post: 68
| Posted: | 10/25/2002 7:51:26 PM | |
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Well when Jerry said it was a personal belief, I don't think he meant you could just not speak up, get the mark, and still be saved. To me, the way it was presented in the book and through his words here was that if it was given to you against your will at a time that you could literally not speak up for Christ that God would know, and he would still save you. After all Chang reviled his mark. He was planning on speaking up before they went to do it. He was told that Mr. Moon was just coming to talk to him right? Not that he was going to get the mark that day? Otherwise he would have spoken up. I thought it was a very interesting point to examine in the books. What would happen in that situation? I read that book before I was saved and never once thought Mr. Jenkins was implying that you could voluntary turn double agent. When people say that Jerry is deceiving those coming to belief after reading his books, it is people like me you are talking about. It wasn't hard for me to understand that taking the mark of the beast would send you to hell, I doubt it was to others like me. Just my opinions on the subject. Also, I apologize if my interpretation of the book or Mr. Jenkins answers are not correct. bluepita | ||
Rookie
Reg Date:
January 19, 2002
Num Post: 133
| Posted: | 10/26/2002 12:23:33 AM | |
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| I think Mr. Jenkins went into a lot of detail about the double mark in Desecration. If that does not explain it clearly, plus what Jerry has said on this site, in this thread, and the input of others, you may not ever see it the way I see it. You may have to agree to disagree and get on with your life serving Christ. This debate has been hashed to death so-o-o-o-o many times the enemy must be rolling in laughter at the confusion and strife he is causing. One of Satan's biggest weapons to impede the progress of our life in Christ is to busy us up with "stuff". Like work, ball practice, music lessons, message boards, and anything else that takes our mind off of spreading the Gospel. There have been several "what if" scenarios that you have ignored (savinggrace and why...). What do you think God would do in those cases? I want to know your interpretation of these potential events. Further, ask yourself this question---"Do I further the cause of Christ by what I do? Do my actions and words glorify Christ or myself?" I trust that God, who already knows how EVERYTHING will play out (and WHEN), will take care of these situations with his never-ending love and mercy. I personally do not think he will let Satan take souls by beating believers unconscious and forcing the mark on them. God will protect his own one way or another. C-IBO | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
October 5, 2001
Num Post: 4453
| Posted: | 10/26/2002 2:32:21 AM | |
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"Because of the way it is presented in the books, it sure seems as if it is okay to not speak up and tell folks you're a Christian, have the mark 'forced' on you and still be a Christian." All due respect, Karen, really, but I couldn't disagree more. Any logical person reading the books would know that I hold that if Chang could have resisted the mark and didn't, he would be lost. I believe that once you are saved, God will give you the grace to become a martyr when the time comes. I know few people, myself included, who could take such a stand without God working. ------------------------------ Jerry B. Jenkins | ||
Rookie
Reg Date:
October 1, 2001
Num Post: 11
| Posted: | 10/26/2002 6:32:33 AM | |
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receive also means : to take in, hold or contain. So you're right, we can say it comes down to the definition. And I guess we are just going to disagree, and that's okay. As for the book, I'll probably continue to keep reading them, because I enjoy them, but I will continue to be disappointed that a supposedly christian is living with the mark of the beast on him. I don't like the character Chang, I perceive him as a wimp. He'll never be able to do anything in the book that is good because he is not good in my eyes, better just to kill him off..  | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
November 29, 2001
Num Post: 3434
| Posted: | 10/26/2002 8:23:05 AM | |
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| Getting the mark through deception - good point. What then are we still OK? I remember seeing a news story about a man who wanted to get all his information on a chip implanted in his hand. Sounds scary to me. What if that seems like a great idea today because of the convenience and later becomes a necessity to do business? Could this end up being taking the mark through deception? | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
October 5, 2001
Num Post: 4453
| Posted: | 10/27/2002 1:13:30 AM | |
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It wasn't through deception. It was by force.
------------------------------ Jerry B. Jenkins | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
November 29, 2001
Num Post: 3434
| Posted: | 10/27/2002 7:13:05 AM | |
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| I know but what about deception? It could happen in the future. We think we're doing something for convenience sake and it ends up being a big mistake. | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
November 29, 2001
Num Post: 3434
| Posted: | 10/27/2002 7:13:09 AM | |
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Veteran
Reg Date:
November 20, 2001
Num Post: 2539
| Posted: | 10/27/2002 9:28:22 AM | |
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I think it will be clear as to whether or not it is the MOB.
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Veteran
Reg Date:
January 29, 2002
Num Post: 449
| Posted: | 10/27/2002 11:54:00 AM | |
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| If the MOB was applied upon a true believer, whether by deception or by force, that person would not lose his salvation. Now, if that situation is even allowed to happen, that is up to God. ------------------------------ Jesus is risen indeed!!! See you in the Glorious Appearing! (April 2004 or another date if | ||