Rookie
Reg Date:
October 20, 2002
Num Post: 9
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| How in the world can Chang receive both marks and be represented as being "saved"? I know the books says he was "forced" to receive the mark of the beast, but the Bible says you can't serve 2 masters or have both marks. You really should have had Chang stand for God and become a Trib Saint. I mean, this IS fiction, isn't it? Not everything in these books are in line with the Bible. Is that the case? Should these books be seen as "fiction" and be left at that? | |||||||||
Rookie
Reg Date:
October 1, 2001
Num Post: 11
| Posted: | 10/24/2002 11:20:42 PM | |
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| I have read every single book, and I do love the Left Behind Series, but I also have a hard time understanding why they would even put the mark on Chang in the book. I don't believe it would ever happen in real life, and I do understand that this is fiction, BUT, it is also a witness to millions of people out there that do not know Christ. I do not believe they are out to decieve people, and I for one am praying this will be resolved in one of the future books, because so much in the books are true scripture, that this is a sore spot, for many people. You say this is just fiction, but wasn't it in fact a chance to get the truth out there in a fashion to reach the unsaved? Wasn't that the intention of the books, and the movie? I hope it was. | ||
Rookie
Reg Date:
October 1, 2001
Num Post: 11
| Posted: | 10/24/2002 11:24:27 PM | |
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| And I haven't been here very often so I haven't read all the threads on this subject, so please don't yell at me. | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
January 19, 2002
Num Post: 2308
| Posted: | 10/25/2002 12:04:51 AM | |
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Kadee, The best answer I can give you is that these books lay out SEVERAL times the only way to get to heaven. As for what will actually happen, we don't know the details entirely. Like Mr. Jenkins has pointed out, the scriptures say that receiving (implies consent) the mark and worshipping the beast are the two criteria for that judgment. This COULD very well happen. While many do not believe it will, it could, we just don't know. I like this phrase so I'm going to use it. A person's belief on what is going to happen in the end times is not a salvation issue. If a person believes that, upon being unconscious the mark in given to you you could still be saved, then that is there interpretation of the issue. Most people seem to say that won't be the case during the actual end times. Well, if that scenerio will never come up, then what people believe about it doesn't really matter. Now some accuse Mr. Jenkins and Dr. LaHaye of deceiving people by telling them that taking the mark is okay so long as you don't worship the beast. This is wholly untrue. Anyone who has read the books up to the explanation of Chang's mark would know that Chang did not take the mark, therefore the author's can't be implying that taking the mark is okay since no Christian has taken the mark. The authors have never stated that it is okay to go ahead and get the mark, just don't worship the beast. If people had read the books they would know this, but those making the accusations haven't even taken the time to read the books. So like I said, one's views on the end times is just like some denominational differences, it isn't a salvation issue, so we will just have to wait to see what happens when it happens. God bless and goodnight. ------------------------------ ______________________________ "The price of hating other human beings is loving oneself less." --Eldridge Cleaver | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
October 5, 2001
Num Post: 4453
| Posted: | 10/25/2002 1:49:44 AM | |
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"My ultimate question was if this was a personal belief of the author or just a book plot." Both, as is everything else in the series. ------------------------------ Jerry B. Jenkins | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
November 6, 2001
Num Post: 396
| Posted: | 10/25/2002 3:40:29 AM | |
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Let's take a moment to reflect on what we all AGREE on. One cannot willingly take the mark of the beast and be saved. Everyone agree on that? I thought so. I've read a lot of these arguments and I think that we can reach a consensus if we focus on that statement. Many of the arguments I've read which attack the authors about Chang's marks like to tell us that the authors believe one can choose the mark and still be a christian as long as one does not worship the beast. We know from Jerry's answers, and from the books, that the intent was to present a situation in which the person did not choose the mark, but ended up with it anyway. Why does this bother people so much? There are a number of people who are afraid that christians, faced with the choice of taking the MOB or torture/death will choose the mark rather than the alternative, thinking they can be a double agent. Now I think most, if not all, of us realize this is simply not the case. I think, even in the explanation in the books, the authors have made it clear that one is not permitted to do so. I also think that Jerry has made it pretty clear in his answers to these questions that he (and I'm assuming Tim LaHaye as well) do not believe one can ever CHOOSE to take the mark to become a "double agent." To me, this means that they are NOT misleading people. It seems to me that we all agree on this one point, and yet somehow we are all still arguing over it. So at least we've learned that there really DOESN'T have to be two sides to have a debate. | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
January 19, 2002
Num Post: 2308
| Posted: | 10/25/2002 8:33:33 AM | |
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Thank you alkaliprincess, you said what I meant, but you said it better.
------------------------------ ______________________________ "The price of hating other human beings is loving oneself less." --Eldridge Cleaver | ||
Rookie
Reg Date:
October 1, 2001
Num Post: 11
| Posted: | 10/25/2002 1:27:12 PM | |
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| Okay, here's my thing..I know Chang didn't willingly take the mark of the beast, and in Revelation 14:9-11- it says, paraphrase, if anyone worships the beast and his image and receives the mark on his head or on his hand, he himself shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of HIs indignation. God does not say in revelation if it is forced on him he will be immune, it says anyone who receives it. Chang recieved it. That is what bothers me, he has the devil residing in him, he is marked by the beast, just as christians are marked by the Lord and have Jesus dwelling in them. That is what revelation says, they who recieve it will have no rest night or day, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever recieves the mark of his name. Note here, whoever worships the beast and whoever recieves the mark of his name. I'm not accusing anyone of being decieving, but I do understand why it bothers so many christians. It bothered me, I had a hard time getting through the last book because I kept believing it would be cleared up, and it wasn't. And I don't want to speak for all christians, but i believe myself, that if it's a possiblity to have accidently recieved the mark, that it would have been addressed in the bible. You have probably heard this all before and I am trying to go through some of the other threads. Thanks | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
January 19, 2002
Num Post: 2308
| Posted: | 10/25/2002 2:07:14 PM | |
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Kadee, The bible doesn't tell us a lot of things, but we know them to be true because we experience them (gravity for example). Just because God chose not to put things in the bible doesn't mean they won't happen or don't occur. I have to leave now so I won't be late for a friend's graduation. My ride just got here so I'll say more when I can. God bless. ------------------------------ ______________________________ "The price of hating other human beings is loving oneself less." --Eldridge Cleaver | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
November 29, 2001
Num Post: 3434
| Posted: | 10/25/2002 6:20:43 PM | |
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RECEIVE: To take or acquire (something given, offered or transmitted) get. ACQUIRE: To gain possession of. To get by one's own efforts. TAKE: To accept and place under one's care or keeping. Chang did none of the above. This whole debate revolves around the definition of receive. | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
December 5, 2001
Num Post: 2837
| Posted: | 10/25/2002 6:49:44 PM | |
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But which should we go by? The Biblical definition or Webster's? Just a thought since folks do believe that this can happen and that they would be okay. Jerry, above, admitted that it is his personal belief, so there's one person who thinks they can have the mark and still be saved. Because of the way it is presented in the books, it sure seems as if it is okay to not speak up and tell folks you're a Christian, have the mark "forced" on you and still be a Christian. The entire scenario is not addressed in Scripture because it is not necessary to address in Scripture. Jesus is quite clear that if we won't stand up for Him, He won't stand up for us. In other words, if we "hide" the fact that we're a Christian and then have the mark forced on us, then too bad, we should have spoken up. I do believe that the beast will "cause" folks to have the mark through deception, not through physical force. It's just not going to serve his purposes. Karen ------------------------------
If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies. If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for. ~Charles Spurgeon
The Hiding Place | ||
