| How in the world can Chang receive both marks and be represented as being "saved"? I know the books says he was "forced" to receive the mark of the beast, but the Bible says you can't serve 2 masters or have both marks. You really should have had Chang stand for God and become a Trib Saint. I mean, this IS fiction, isn't it? Not everything in these books are in line with the Bible. Is that the case? Should these books be seen as "fiction" and be left at that? |
Veteran
Reg Date:
December 5, 2001
Num Post: 2840
| Posted: | 10/27/2002 2:14:46 PM | |
| ||
|
Jerry, Chang, in the book, simply "crossed himself" and that was his entire "profession of Christ." Yet, the Bible is clear. We must stand and speak out. God knows our hearts, indeed, but you, Jerry, have presented a Christian having the mark of the beast and still being a Christian. No matter how he got it, no matter whether he wanted it, you've presented something contrary to the Word of God. I also believe that God will give us grace at the time of need, but you didn't present that God in the LB books. You presented a God that couldn't help Chang stand up for what he believed in. You presented a Christianity wherein the believers seek to save their lives rather than seek to do His will. What did Stephen do when presented with death for his beliefs? Did he cower and fall away? Or did he stand strong? Paul? Peter? John? Matthew? Any of the believers that have died for Christ? I believe that the portrayal of Chang accepting the mark of the beast and still being saved is not only, at the very least, unBiblical, but is a slap in the face of the over 450 Christians who die every single day, right now, for their faith. They are standing firm against antichrist teachings and yet, you have this fellow succombing to them and yet still saved. There is a problem inherent in that and it saddens me no end that you cannot see that problem. It saddens me, Jerry, that you would seek to justify what you've done with this entire mark of the beast teaching. Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Jesus clearly taught that we're to be willing to die for Him in order to be His followers. And I'm not saying that we're never to be afraid and I don't think that's what the Bible's teaching either. Rather it is teaching that in spite of our fears, we're to stand strong in our faith and be bold in proclaiming His name. Chang didn't do that. According to the Bible, Chang is no longer a Christian. Karen ------------------------------
If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies. If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for. ~Charles Spurgeon
The Hiding Place
| ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
January 19, 2002
Num Post: 470
| Posted: | 10/27/2002 4:37:23 PM | |
| ||
| Baloney | ||
Rookie
Reg Date:
August 19, 2001
Num Post: 73
| Posted: | 10/27/2002 7:45:05 PM | |
| ||
| savinggrc, I know neither you or I will be able to change the others opinion. therefore, I am not going to try. I jut want to correct a couple of mistakes you made in your post. Chang planned on professing himself the entire time. The reason all he could do was cross himself and point upward was the fact he was so drugged that he could literally not say anything made sense. There were reasons he put off professing himself for as long as he did. The first was the fact that it would also lead top revaeling his sister's faith and probably have her arrested before she knew of his confession. The second was David told him to hold off so he could see what he could do in order to save Chang from death. the story did not present this situation lightly or merely have Chang do a token protest. He was just literally unable to speak out. This had nothing to do with God not being able to help him stand up for what he believed in either. Mr. Jenkins did not present it that way at all. You said that '(Mr. Jenkins) presented a Christianity wherein the believers seek to save their lives rather than seek to do His will.' this is another flaw that I would like to correct. there are numerous accounts in Mr. Jenkins books that show Christian upon Christian beheaded, because they would not renounce Christ by gettin the MOB. Mr. Jenkins also says in the books that God would give all Christians the srength and grace to say no and die. To say what you did robbed that book of much of its touching beauty, the beauty of seeing people stand for what they believed in. I thought those scenes were very powerful. As for this being a slap in the face to today's martyrs, I believe that is a little exageratted. No one is or ever could take away from those wonderful people. This scene with Chang had no relation to them. This is a work of fiction and Mr. Jenkins cannot bestoy the title of saved on anyone. He can't say that anyone person is saved regardless of what that persopn does. If he could, we would be in a lot of trouble, since only god is supposed to be able to do that. I just think you are getting way too serious about this. I can't speak for Mr. Jenkins; but I always thought that, as he was writing the book, he thought of that situation, wondering what would happen and wrote an interesting plot twist to explore it. I hope you take this corrections I made with the spirit I meant them in, which is kind.  I know that you and I won't agree but perhaps we can agree to disagree. I think both sides of this subject just get overheated too quickly about it. bluepita | ||
Rookie
Reg Date:
October 1, 2001
Num Post: 12
| Posted: | 10/27/2002 9:32:23 PM | |
| ||
| I agree with Karen, I don't think Chang ever stood up for Christ before he recieved the mark and that is the reason I have a hard time liking his character in the book, and why I keep believing that eventually it will be shown that he is not really a christian. It disagrees with our hearts, not just our thoughts. And I know it will be said, this is just fiction, but it's not just fiction, it is the books that got the world thinking, and seeking and coming to the Lord. amen for that. But this m/o/b on a christian, I'll never come to grips with, because I do believe it's unscriptural. | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
December 5, 2001
Num Post: 2840
| Posted: | 10/27/2002 10:02:03 PM | |
| ||
|
Hi bp, I read the books. Chang should have and could have told his dad that he didn't want the mark because he was a Christian rather than allowing his dad to think that he was just afraid (which is what he did). His justification for not speaking out was that he was trying to save his and his sister's lives. According to Jesus, he forfeited life. Not physical, spiritual. The deal is that though many will say, "It's just fiction" it's still teaching and it proclaims itself to be Biblically-based. Since it's contrary to the Bible, then it cannot be Biblically-based. It's certainly not baloney as Tim purports. 450 Christians die every day for their faith in Jesus. They refuse to succomb to the antichrist teachings in this world. They are willing to give their lives. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church. Did you know that there are more Christians in China now than there are Communists. Christianity, contrary to what the books teach, flourishes in times of persecution rather than kowtow to it and turn away from what the Bible says. Karen ------------------------------
If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies. If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for. ~Charles Spurgeon
The Hiding Place
| ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
October 5, 2001
Num Post: 4459
| Posted: | 10/28/2002 12:08:34 AM | |
| ||
|
Chang, in the book, simply "crossed himself" and that was his entire "profession of Christ." He was losing consciousness and was not even aware he was doing that "...you've presented something contrary to the Word of God." Thoroughly untrue, and you spread discord unnecessarily by saying so. "I also believe that God will give us grace at the time of need, but you didn't present that God in the LB books." You must not have read them then. You don't recall all the martyrs who accepted the guillotine, beaten yet singing all the way? What wa ridiculous thing to say. "I believe that the portrayal of Chang accepting the mark of the beast..." He didn't accept it. "...it saddens me no end that you cannot see that problem." It stuns me that you refuse to read it the way it was written. You imply Chang had a choice. Everybidy else seems to get it. "According to the Bible, Chang is no longer a Christian." That's simply wholly not so, but it reveals you as one who does not believe that the work of Christ in the salvation transaction is eternal and secure. Talk about what saddens somebody. The work of salvation is God's, and Chang was a sealed believer. Thus he always will be. ------------------------------ Jerry B. Jenkins | ||
Rookie
Reg Date:
August 19, 2001
Num Post: 73
| Posted: | 10/28/2002 12:26:41 AM | |
| ||
|
He did put off telling his dad, not knowing that his dad would create a way he couldn't deny it. Unfortunately he never got the chance to come down to the wire and say I believe in Jesus. He fully planned on doing so but was never given the choice. It should also be noted that Chang is only a child and had not even graduated from high school. Is he under or over the age of accountibility? (Just something I personally am curious about. I have read differing opinions on exactly what age that is. ) Now as for it being contrary to the Bible, the Bible does not address a subject like this. It does say that anyone who takes the mark will be damned, but it doesn't say anything about having it forced on you. Now we all have our opinion of it, even our opinion of it based on what we think we are seeing in the Bible. Unfortunately, none of us being god, we cannot say 100% that we are right. I noticed that you did not answer some of the hypotheticals others put out for your opinion. Well I have one that I am actually curious to know your opinion on. This is just out of curiosity, not to start an arguement or anything. You believe in post-trib, right? Ok so we are living in the tribulation, no rapture has happened, so all the innocents, elderly, and children are here. The Anti-Christ has decided that all must have the MOB. Your children are at school. Unexpectedly the AC decides that is just the place to start and begins applying it to the children without parental consent. (I seriously can see something like this happening.) You pick your kids up from school and are shocked to see that. Are they going to hell? These lines of questioning are interesting. That is one of the reasons the Left Behind series is so good. Exploring lines of thought like this is a big part of what fiction is all about. I am not going to answer about Mr. Jenkins baloney, because the way I took it could be wrong. I doubt he was saying baloney to the fact that their are so many persecuted Christians though. It is interesting you bring that up, though, since I just read all the things you said about them. Jesus Freaks II is a great book. If you haven't read that one yet, I highly recommend it. bluepita | ||