Rookie
Reg Date:
October 20, 2002
Num Post: 9
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| How in the world can Chang receive both marks and be represented as being "saved"? I know the books says he was "forced" to receive the mark of the beast, but the Bible says you can't serve 2 masters or have both marks. You really should have had Chang stand for God and become a Trib Saint. I mean, this IS fiction, isn't it? Not everything in these books are in line with the Bible. Is that the case? Should these books be seen as "fiction" and be left at that? | |||||||||
Rookie
Reg Date:
October 20, 2002
Num Post: 9
| Posted: | 10/21/2002 6:54:04 PM | |
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| I'm not trying to "down" anybody. Just healthy debate. I don't know who Eric is. My name is Michelle from Indiana, registered nurse, mom of 2. As for the "rape" statement. No. A husband shouldn't divorce his wife for adultry for a rape. You are comparing human evil to the Grace of God. Shame on you. | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
November 13, 2001
Num Post: 2062
| Posted: | 10/21/2002 7:44:51 PM | |
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He is'nt really. If a person were raped a husband or wife shouldn't divorce her or him. If a person were to be knocked out, drugged, and have the mark forced on them, should God turn his back on them? God said he'd never turn his back on us. ------------------------------
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image from www.flamingtext.comVeteran
Reg Date:
November 6, 2001
Num Post: 413
| Posted: | 10/22/2002 2:43:51 AM | |
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why... I've read many posts on this subject, but you're the first one I've seen that's voiced the same opinion I hold (although it is possible others have posted this and I just haven't seen it) I agree with you. Chang knew what was coming. He knew that he was going to be faced with taking the mark. He had every opportunity to say "Hey! I'm a Christian and I WILL NOT take the MOB" but he didn't. My opinion is that in neglecting to stand for Christ, he DID accept the MOB. However, and this is a BIG HOWEVER, the series is a work of fiction. It is not the basis nor the foundation for our faith. I just accept the interpretation that Chang retains his salvation because the mark was forced upon him as part of the storyline and enjoy the series. As others have said, I don't really believe that anyone will be forced to take the mark against their will. But it is an interesting idea. At least it has gotten us all to think. | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
November 29, 2001
Num Post: 3448
| Posted: | 10/22/2002 6:46:20 AM | |
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Hi why. Sorry about the lousy welcome you got.
sometimes those of us who have been here awhile forget that there are new people who maybe haven't been a part of the big debates that have gone on around here. You just happened to ask a question about the
really sore subject around here lately. Maybe we should look at a person's post count before we jump down their throat. I don't think her post read like an Eric post and even if she was someone from the "Eric camp" she didn't do anything except ask a question and a valid one at that. | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
January 29, 2002
Num Post: 458
| Posted: | 10/22/2002 8:45:03 AM | |
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That is exactly what I meant. We all make mistakes, and sin (and in fact I John 1:8-10 says that if we claim not to sin we are decieving ourselves and calling God a liar.) Chang was already a believer when the mark of the beast was forced upon him. I will not say that there where many oportunities for him to declare himself a believer because he could have up until he was stuck with the needle. He only has one master, but like a spy who has infiltrated an enemy army, he gives the appearance of serving another. ------------------------------ Jesus is risen indeed!!! | ||
Rookie
Reg Date:
October 20, 2002
Num Post: 9
| Posted: | 10/22/2002 12:08:48 PM | |
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| Don't you think it is possible for some of the folks who were in line to get the m.o.b., and were believers, but were to scared to face that loss-of-head-thing. If those people who had the mark but wanted more to live and got the mark, would all of them be "double agents" as well. Seems to easy to me. | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
January 19, 2002
Num Post: 2388
| Posted: | 10/22/2002 12:52:01 PM | |
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But at the moment that the mark would be applied they have the ability to say yes or no and they are given that choice. In the book, Chang was not given the luxury.
------------------------------ ______________________________ "The price of hating other human beings is loving oneself less." --Eldridge Cleaver | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
November 29, 2001
Num Post: 3448
| Posted: | 10/22/2002 1:09:14 PM | |
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Don't you think it is possible for some of the folks who were in line to get the m.o.b., and were believers, but were to scared to face that loss-of-head-thing. If those people who had the mark but wanted more to live and got the mark, would all of them be "double agents" as well. Seems to easy to me. In this work of fiction or in real life? In real life if you're standing in line and you decide to take the mark to save your life - you've chosen the mark over God. | ||
Rookie
Reg Date:
July 25, 2001
Num Post: 94
| Posted: | 10/22/2002 4:23:14 PM | |
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Good point faith_renewed. If you CHOOSE the mark, you're lost. Period. Doesn't make an exception. Like I said, LB is a work of fiction. That doesn't mean I would have written that in, however. To paraphrase David Hassid in the book, that forehead (of Chang's) is causing the believers some problems. And Michelle, sorry about all the heat you took. I guess some are still paranoid over Eric. If you don't know him, you may not want to. He's a witch-hunter. ------------------------------ Serving Him, Mike | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
October 5, 2001
Num Post: 4487
| Posted: | 10/22/2002 4:34:47 PM | |
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OK, so you and your Jedi Master want me to take you seriouly? I'll try, suspicious as I am. "How in the world can Chang receive both marks and be represented as being 'saved'?" You didn't find that in the books? I don't know how it could be clearer. It's not even deep. I'm not deep. I've never been even accused of being deep. In fact, I wear the opposite charge as a badge of honor. My writing is so simple, anyone can understand it. "I know the books says he was 'forced' to receive the mark of the beast, but the Bible says you can't serve 2 masters or have both marks." Do you see him serving two masters? I don't. And the Bible says you can't RECEIVE or TAKE both marks, clear implication, by choice. That's why people can't do that consciously, with a plan, to be a double agent. "You really should have had Chang stand for God and become a Trib Saint." He would have if he could have. If you read the story, you know he was drugged and forced. What men meant for evil, God used for good. "I mean, this IS fiction, isn't it?" Well, you understood that part, but I don't hide behind the fact that it's fiction to explain away anything people disagree with. "Not everything in these books are in line with the Bible." The fact that he was saved, and that that work was done by God and cannot be undone, is in line with the Bible. What would you have had happen if a Christian were drugged and forced to take the mark? He should lose his salvation and go to hell? If I was rude to you, it was because your old saw bored me, and nothing in my explanation above says anything the books doesn't say. That doesn't justify rudeness, and so I apologize. Frankly I'm not convinced you're not yet another in the long line of Eric clones, and if that is true, you win...Eric provokes anger and an apology from his target. As for the Jedi, you accuse me of elitism and biting by responding with the same, only more elitist and biting? Does that ever work? It didn't this time either. ------------------------------ Jerry B. Jenkins | ||