Registered: Jun 2002
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 964

Maybe this has something in common with scriptures about not eating food sacrificed to idols. A symbol has no power in itself, but if I know that a symbol is supposed to bring good luck, represents a belief system such as astrology or representations of Catholic saints, then it would be participating in idolatry. After I became a Christian I destroyed all my books about astrology, occultism, eastern religion, yoga, etc. I don't think that demons were dwelling in the physical books, but their teachings were of demonic origin. At a later point, I also destroyed some "Christian" books that represented false teaching.

Otherwise we could get into a twisted logic like: Satanists eat ketchup, there fore, if I eat ketchup I am acting like them and subject to demonic control.

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Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Newport, South Wales GB
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Jesus is the light of the world. Light can overcome darkness. But the darkness cannot overcome the light. The stronger the light, the more the darkness is exposed. When we are in Jesus and He in us, we are walking in the light. We've been brought from the darkness into the light. That's why we can see the darkness that is in the world. I too have burned many books after I've been saved, before I knew that this was described in Acts. I just didn't want anybody else to get hold of them. I do believe that things can be cursed and demons can be attached to things, but they cannot harm anybody that is in Jesus. Again - darkness cannot overcome light.
Before I started to work at that bookshop 1 year ago I didn't know of deception in the church, nor that 'christian' books exist that were written by mediums. I never went round to find anything that could be from other than God or not honouring Him. But praise the Lord that He has opened my eyes. By His grace alone I was made aware of literature and other things that don't honour Him. I have to say it, or remove what I believe He is laying on my heart.

About the 'knowing' thing again Tania I can only speak of my own experience. In all but one cases, when I 'knew' something wasn't right - somebody else has confirmed it after. The one case (the black box) I don't have confirmation (yet?) although saying that - strange events have occured while that box was in the shop. As I was getting into studying the story of Noah and his son Ham again (Midrash thread) it reminded me again of 'When Noah awoke from his wine, he 'knew' what his youngest son (Ham) had done to him.

All this has just made me search and study the Scriptures more - because at the end of the day - that's where we find the Truth - in the Word of God.

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Registered: Oct 2002
Location: North Attleboro, Massachusetts
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Thank you, Carol for stating Moriel's postion.

Would you be willing to share Moriel's position on the way or ways a Christian may give place to the devil?

What is Moriel's position on Satan's devices? Christians are not to be ignorant of them.

What is Moriel's position on renouncing the works of darkness and reproving them? Nowhere did Paul hint that fear of Satan had anything to do with this. Satan fears US and what we can accomplish for God's kingdom if we do this.

Most evangelical churches say that no matter what a Christian does, he will not give place to the devil. That is why they will not speak out about the occult explosion in their very midst.

Many chuches also do not believe a Christian should know about Satan's devices because if he does, that gives glory to Satan. It does not give glory to him to know how not to be devoured by him.

This is has nothing to do with fear, it has to do with being a holy and useable vessel for the Lord rather than being hindered because of reasons we are not allowed to find out about because the people who pay big money in the church don't want this preached about.

If I had known Moriel's position was like this, I would not have answered Sonja's question, but asked her to email me. I understand now my exhortations and warnings about this are not acceptable here. My desire is for nobody to be destroyed by Satan's devices because I know our family nearly was. 
Peace to you all,

Lisa Ruby

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God won't do a bit more through you than you have faith for. Rees Howells

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Registered: Oct 2002
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Carol,

I just wanted to let you know I am leaving peacefully, but I thought about a couple of verses in reference to a couple of your statments.

"Moriel does not believe evil spirits are seeking you out,"

God's Word says the devil is seeking Christians out.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

"I don't feel God has called us to live in fear, always be on the lookout, someone or something evil is out to get you - that's fear and is not of God."

God's Word says that we must be sober and vigilant (watchful).

Sincerely,

Lisa Ruby

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God won't do a bit more through you than you have faith for. Rees Howells

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I do not believe in Kingdom Dominion Theology or the binding and loosing of the charismatic teachers. I never mentioned it (and never have) and it is NOT truth to yoke me with these people.

I also warn against the charismatic slaying in the spirit phenomenon.

Sincerely,

Lisa Ruby

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God won't do a bit more through you than you have faith for. Rees Howells

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Registered: Jun 2002
Location: kiwiland
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I hope you have not left yet. What you say about being vigilant and staying sober certainly goes with what the sermon on the link provided by Carol says. The sermon is faithful and true.
In the example Claire gave about the food sacrificed to idols in 1Corinthians 8 it says in verse 4, "we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one." Idols are nothing to us, as he says. His point was that we should not be a stumbling block in our conduct was it not?
When Christians allow idols to be in their presence however, when they have the choice of not having them, perhaps this is a sign of disobedience in some area as much as anything else. THAT, (disobedience) is dangerous as I know you agree.

Blessings.

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Hi Lisa
I would like to attempt to answer on behalf of Moriel – the South African bit anyway. Moriel doesn’t have a rule book or statement policy book all we have is a small statement of faith. Otherwise we would have a library to fill. What we do have is the use of Hermeneutics when it comes to dealing with scripture. And that means dealing with scripture in its context of surrounding verses. We try not to read into scripture, this is called eisegesis and is often used by individuals to prove text a point of view by taking various scriptures out of context to prove a philosophy of some kind. I don’t know if Jacob would want to add further to my comments but he's welcome to anyway.
I have taken some of your questions and lined them up. So after each comment or question you asked I will give a comment. Please forgive my typing errors, remember we do not have spelling mistakes on the message board. I have also placed an article after this that I believe is a balanced biblical look at generational curses

Would you be willing to share Moriel's position on the way or ways a Christian may give place to the devil?

Look at the context of the quote from Ephesians 4v27. The word for place or opportunity is ‘Topos’ in the Greek. It means occasion or occupancy. Paul is speaking on this instance in v17 of the ‘futility of your minds’, v18’Darkened in your understanding”’ then he goes on in verse by verse speaking of our attitudes. He uses such words as callousness, sensuality etc, THEN he says, do not give place to the devil; it is in these areas that the verse gains its context. Again this fits in with the next point below. So not giving in to the devil is to remain in an attitude where you are not sensual, not callous, where your understanding is not darkened. To give way to the devil is to take upon you the attitudes Paul speaks against

What is Moriel's position on Satan's devices? Christians are not to be ignorant of them.

From Ephesians 6:11. The word for Devises or wiles is ‘Methodeia’, where we get the English word method from. It can mean trickery, scheming and a way of travelling over. Satan comes in several forms, as an angel of light, the dragon that makes war on the saints but the serpent is his most cunning of his disguises as he seduces the saints into false philosophies and doctrines. In 2Corinthians 10 : 3 –5, it tells us WHAT we battle against in Spiritual warfare, They are v5 “Destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of Christ and we are taking every thought captive into the obedience of Christ” This is true spiritual warfare according to scripture. That is the preaching of the gospel, the pursuit of a holy life and obedience to the master. I would say that being aware of the devils wiles would be awareness that he is a seducer who wants us to walk after the flesh and speculate on mythologies such as hyperdemonology. The spiritual warfare movement is nothing more than a christianised version of Dungeons and dragons. Real Spiritual warfare is very difficult because as you battle men’s philosophies, lofty thoughts and preach the gospel you can face rejection because this is done on a personal level. It is easy to spend time binding and loosing non-existent entities, the word Paul uses in Greek means ‘nothings’. While the church does this less time is spent on the real problem.

What is Moriel's position on renouncing the works of darkness and reproving them? Nowhere did Paul hint that fear of Satan had anything to do with this. Satan fears US and what we can accomplish for God's kingdom if we do this.

Again what you state is modern Christian myth and not biblical doctrine. The rule of hermeneutics is that we keep things simply to the text and not read into them things which are not there. I believe you are quoting from Romans 13:12? In that case look again at the context, no evil imps, spirits or elves just the works of the flesh. The truth is, Satan does not need to send his hordes after us, we battle against our own desires – the flesh. We do so badly in this area that our own lusts are our downfall.

Most evangelical churches say that no matter what a Christian does, he will not give place to the devil. That is why they will not speak out about the occult explosion in their very midst.

The occult explosion is very real and you are correct that many in Christendom remain uneducated to the false religions out there, even within the church we see New Age philosophies coming in but again it is the philosophies we battle against.. Most people adopt these belief systems usually because of their lust for power and sensuality; again we see that it is the flesh. All that Satan does is provide a contact point for the person to get hooked. Most Christian churches are wrong when they say no matter what a Christian does he will not give place to the devil. Let me give an example, I am ministering to some Northern Sotho ladies who are bare breasted. Does the devil send an evil spirit to seduce me? No of course not, I have to engage discipline and cry to the Lord for his sufficiency. The flesh does it all.

Many churches also do not believe a Christian should know about Satan's devices because if he does, that gives glory to Satan. It does not give glory to him to know how not to be devoured by him.

To some point I agree, but there again we have the context of devises. I think that most churches would warn of the devises I have mentioned and that we need to live Holy obedient lives. They will not mention curses, evil spirits etc because in themselves they are nothing but the foothold you give them. Claire pointed out correctly that in themselves they are wood, stone, shapes etc. hers an absurd example. If what you say about shapes is true, then there are thousands of shapes in Nature which we should not even bother with. That includes flowers, snowflakes. When it snows as it has been doing for our friends in the states what do they do? Get out the good symbols and crucifixes, plea the blood of the Lamb? No of course not, that kind of mindset is set in the same method as witches. Potions, symbols, shapes, words said in the right order. In effect we have invented a christianised witchcraft.

This is has nothing to do with fear, it has to do with being a holy and useable vessel for the Lord rather than being hindered because of reasons we are not allowed to find out about because the people who pay big money in the church don't want this preached about.

I think that a more appropriate word than fear would be ‘respect’. Look at the epistle of Jude; the Gnostics were doing what many with this belief system do today. They were reviling angelic majesties v8. We see in v9 that not even the mighty angel Michael did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgement but said the Lord rebuke you. Whether we like it or not, Satan was created a magnificent, beautiful mighty Angel of God with great power and dignity. We respect what God created, he id Gods Satan and whether Satan likes it or not God is sovereign and uses Satan to His own ends. Any rebuking of Satan or other fallen Angels is not something we are called to do. Yes the Devil will flee, but look at the context of the verse again in James 4:1 –7. James is talking about the very same issues Paul wrote about – the flesh and its desires and the philosophies we take on board. Notice also it says “Submit to God” (Obedience) Resist the Devil (Don’t take on board these things) THEN he will flee, our position must be founded in what God does. Maybe some one else can help but I find nowhere in scripture that says Satan is scared of us? The bible says Demons tremble because of their belief, but if Satan is scared then why is he roaring like a Lion and as Jacob often says, if the Devil keeps getting bound then who keeps letting him out?


I just wanted to let you know I am leaving peacefully, but I thought about a couple of verses in reference to a couple of your statements.

"Moriel does not believe evil spirits are seeking you out,"

God's Word says the devil is seeking Christians out. Yes but not evil spirits, remember the context of all these verses

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Yes be sober, be vigilant, not to do so is silly, but remember the context, Peter is speaking to a church under severe persecution were the temptation was to give up the faith, he is speaking about the flesh and its weakness under persecution. Remember all a Christian has to do was sacrifice to Caesar and he was out of there. All Satan wanted was for the Christian to throw his salt over his shoulder and say ‘Cease is Lord” and like a roaring lion he would be in there.

"I don't feel God has called us to live in fear, always be on the lookout, someone or something evil is out to get you - that's fear and is not of God."
Why do we believe a healthy fear is undesirable? After all we fear God? The fear that we speak of is a healthy respect that can keep you alive. Yes I do respect the devil, he wants to make me fall 99.9% of the time he will let my weaknesses do it for me. Sometimes he may whisper in my ear ‘look at that women there’. He may send someone as he did with Peter to say ‘is this really Gods will for you”. Yes I live in a healthy fear for my self and my family because I know like Paul that the things I know I should do I don’t do and the things I know I shouldn’t do, I do”.

God's Word says that we must be sober and vigilant (watchful).
Yes but for those things in the context of scripture not elves and imps.

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Registered: Dec 2002
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Sorry will have to do this in several parts - Carol can I pray the prayer of Jabez and have my portion increased?


Let me just finish with a small testimony after saying this. Please do not leave the board. We need to have different opinions and be able to be teachable that’s how we all grow. There are many on this board who have me saying “O Brother” many times but I value their impute.
I ministered in the UK for 15 years. When I came to Africa I had a shock. The spiritual dimension was so intense. The tribal religions allow for every spirit and demon under the son, this is combined with a mixture of ancestor worship and Roman Catholicism. I had worked also for reachout trust in the UK a ministry dealing with the occult and New age but compared to Africa it was nothing, Africa is in a different league. Someone approached me about a certain relative. That relative was having Poltergeist experiences and was being strangles in their sleep. Sexual molestation was also going on. The manifestations were so intense that even neighbours were affected. They had gone to the witchdoctor, the priest, the charismatics, no one could help. Why was it that when I visited nothing would happen? Why was it that when I brought sound teaching on this area the manifestations stopped? It was not because of me, I was fearful, never seen anything like it. The truth was the prevailing culture allowed these things to have power over them because they new not the sovereignty and power of God and their culture was sensual.
Often what happens in Africa is one set of witchcraft, superstition and fear is exchanged for another. They go from one form of casting spell for another and never attempt to understand scripture or lead a Holy life.

And just one thing, not only to Lisa but to all the board, whey is it that a disagreement is often seen as an attack? Yes lets not get personal, no one knows each other well enough to do that. Lets have a bit more maturity when we deal with these issues or I am off to the Telly Tubbies message board for some adult conversation.
Come let us reason together
Dave


GENERATIONAL CURSES
Introduction
The more I read about generational curses the more I realise just what a wide ranging subject it is and how different groups have a different definition for the words. However, I hope that these notes will deal with the basic concepts as I see them. If there are other issues not covered in these notes, please do contact us with your questions and queries. One of the first things we need to do is to ask in Biblical terms what does 'curse' mean. In the Old Testament there are three words translated as curse and in the New Testament just one. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia gives us some helpful information in its article on curse. This word as noun and vb. Renders different Heb words, some of them being more or less synonymous, differing only in degree or strength… When a curse is pronounced… A curse was considered to posses an inherent power of carrying itself into effect… In the dramatic situation depicted in Dt 11 29; 27 12f)… the curse was the penalty for disobedience, as the blessing was the reward for obedience… The violator of the law is under a curse. His doom has been pronounced. Escape is impossible. But on the cross Jesus Christ endured the curse - for "cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree" (Gal 3 10.13)… Jesus commands His disciples, "Bless them that curse you". - Vol 1, p.767. Biblically a curse from another person needs to be pronounced but the receiver has the chance to reject it and return a blessing on the person obviously without effect. Just as a curse can be brought on yourself by disobedience, you have a chance to bring a blessing on yourself with obedience. It seems to me that the way many use the word 'curse' does not fall into these categories and maybe curse is the wrong word to use. We will use it in the rest of the notes, as that is the way it is often described but we will see other instances that show that this is not correct terminology. I do believe that it is possible for there to be a negative effect on our lives from past generations, however the form this effect takes, the extent that we are being told it happens and the almost total assumption that everyone must have a curse, are problems that I hope to address in these notes. There is nothing worse than mistreating or even 'abusing' Christians by telling them they are cursed when they are not. We are then simply doing the Devil's work for him and creating a situation that for some has been unbearable. We have a friend who God has led through cancer and brought her out the other side with a great testimony of Him. At a recent meeting, she was told categorically that the reason she had cancer was because her late husband was a freemason and the disease was the result of that curse. Devastated she phoned for advice. No account was taken of the fact that the Lord had healed or that He had used her in this situation - the husband was a freemason and therefore there must be a curse - cancer was it. Such advice is more like divination than Christian counselling.Martin Yarde who has in the passed been involved in this type of ministry commented in a letter to Reachout Trust, This teaching can easily put people into bondage to those who claim to have the gifting or 'anointing' in this area. Like many similar teachings, it does in effect deny the sufficiency of the cross and can undermine a believer's personal relationship with Jesus by making him more dependent on 'professional' deliverance ministers. In all this, there is a distinct lack of emphasis on the sovereignty of God. The implication is that unless the problem of generational curses is dealt with, you may miss out on God's blessing in your life. This can lead to paranoia and endless seeking after ministry. General ObservationsI begin by making some general observations. First that the vast majority of the teaching concerning 'Generational Curses' comes from the Old Testament. We do not want to ignore the Old Testament and especially the Law on which so much of the teaching is based but we are to understand its place. Matthew 5:17 clearly tells us that Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets but rather to fulfil them. However, we must read the context to see that Jesus was talking to the disciples with Jewish backgrounds that did seek to keep the Law. Notice verse 20 especially where He tells them that to enter the Kingdom of Heaven their righteousness must surpass that of the Scribes and Pharisees. Jesus was not telling them to fulfil the Law themselves; He was saying that it was impossible for men. He then in the next verses shows that He has made the task even harder if we are trying to do it ourselves (see verses 21, 27, 38 etc.) The teaching as you look at the context is that today the Law is not outward but inward. We are not to reject the Law but to see that the only way to fulfil it is to know Christ within. Paul takes up this teaching and especially in 2 Corinthians 3 shows the clear difference between the Old Testament believer and the New Testament believer (see verses 7 and 8). Any verses that are quoted with regard to 'Generational Curses,' included in this teaching of Jesus and Paul in the New Testament, must be seen in this context. Another significant general observation I want to make is concerning Jesus' ministry. More than anyone else Jesus dealt with demonic cases and yet in all the records there is not one hint of 'Generational Curses.' Indeed the one time that Jesus could have easily taught about the matter in John 9:1-3, He made clear that the 'curse' had nothing to do with the past. This leads me to ask the question as to whether the emphasis that has developed on 'Generational Curses' in the last few years is a real or an imagined one? Is it the latest fad of which we have had so many in the past years or is there clear Biblical teaching that shows that we are experiencing today an unprecedented revival in these areas? Ten years ago you hardly heard about them, today just about everyone has a curse according to some Bible teachers. Martin Yarde also adds the following observation, Furthermore you can find no mention of it in the history of great revivals, when far higher numbers of people were saved and Christians seemed to end up living much more victorious lives than we do today. Those who minister… are involved in an activity of which the New Testament knows nothing.InvestigationWith this in mind, I want to investigate two presentations of this doctrine. First by Ron G Campbell in his book Free from Freemasonry. Ron is founder of the American Jeremiah Project and teaches on spiritual warfare. The fact that this presentation of curses comes within a book on Freemasonry is not unusual as many today are claiming that almost everyone who has an ancestor who was a Freemason is cursed. Secondly, I want to use some notes sent to me by one of our supporters after John Lyndon-Cook spoke on Premier Christian Radio. The person concerned not only listened carefully to the programme but also spoke personally on the telephone to John Lyndon-Cook.Ron G. Campbell So lets begin with the teaching of Ron G Campbell, which starts on p.155 of his book under the chapter title 'Understanding Generation Curses'. On p.157 we read, when explaining what is a curse, this seemingly balanced statement,

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The word "curse" evokes a variety of responses in different individuals. To many people, curses are the use of foul language or profanity. Others think of curses as nothing more than the stuff of fairy tales, with witches casting spells and hexes and turning handsome princes into ugly toads. Then there are some who see a demon behind every bush. They blame curses for every negative incident or problem they have ever encountered. At the other end of the spectrum are those who are so afraid of becoming curse conscious (putting overemphasis on them) that they become curse unconscious. And finally, there are those who won't even consider the possibility. You can almost hear this person say, "Curses are from the dark ages; we're so much smarter today." Positioned somewhere on the continuum between these two extremes-those who blame curses for anything negative and those who refuse to believe curses exist-are those who are at least open to the possibilities of demons and curses, yet they remain guarded.However, a darker scene had already been set without any qualification whatsoever by the opening paragraph on p.155. It is time to consider Masonry's lingering effects on friends and family members. Have the secret oaths and esoteric rituals acted out by Masons behind the closed doors of the Lodge opened other doors that may not be as easily recognized? That is, have they opened entry points for curses that now oppress their loved ones? Yes! On p.158 Campbell begins to explain that curses were real in the Old Testament and then that they were real in the New Testament and quotes Galatians 3:13 saying that because Christ took the curse there is no need for any of us to remain under a curse. Let us therefore look at these verses in Galatians. GALATIANS 3 We need to read the context again and see exactly what Paul is talking about - are we just talking about any curse or a generational curse or what? Interestingly these verses are very specific and as verse 10 tells us have to do with those who are seeking to live by the works of the Law. We can even go further than this because Paul was using it to show the Galatians that having begun their life in the liberty of the Spirit, they were no longer living that way. By going back to the Old Testament Law and trying to keep it, they were calling down a curse on their lives. In other words because of what the individual was doing - not because of what their ancestors had done they were calling down a curse. No one could be justified by the Law, no one could keep it and so all would be under a curse, but Christ redeemed (past tense) them from that curse in that He became the curse and fulfilled the Law, thus they could walk in the Spirit and be free to know the blessing of Abraham. However, if THEY chose not to live that way THEY would be calling a curse on themselves. Very different from a generational curse. Am I saying then that there are no instances in the New Testament where someone from a previous generation caused a curse to come on a living person? Yes that is it exactly. As there are not too many Scriptures in the New Testament where the word curse or cursing appears I have categorised them below. Give blessing when cursed by another living being.Matthew 5:44 Luke 6:28 Romans 12:14 Concerning PeterMatthew 26:74 Mark 14:71 Curse put upon you, another living being or an objectMatthew 15:4 Mark 7:10 Mark 11:21 Acts 23:12,14 James 3:9,10 Curse of works of Law John 7:49 Galatians 3:10 Christ redeems us from curse of works of Law Galatians 3:13 Revelation 22:3 Concerning judgement for deeds or lack of them Matthew 25:41 Romans 3:14 Hebrews 6:8 2 Peter 2:14 Cursed because we do not believe or preach the only true gospel 1 Corinthians 12:3 1 Corinthians 16:22 Galatians 1:8,9 Separated from Christ Romans 9:3 Every one of those Scriptures is to do with a living person either being affected by their own actions as they live or another living person. Not one is seen to be cursed from a former member of their family.Old TestamentIf there is nothing in the New Testament what are the verses used in the Old Testament and how should we react to them today? On p.159, Campbell begins to quote scriptural references that allude to the reality of curses.Exodus 20:3-6. These are the key verses quoted, especially verse 5, and so I would like to make a few comments about them. The context here is that people worship and serve other gods. The result very importantly is not an automatic curse - in fact, the word 'curse' does not appear in these verses at all - but that the Lord is "visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the third and the fourth generations of those that hate Me." (NASB) Does this say that there is an automatic curse on future generations because one member of the family was a Freemason? No! What does it say then? Several very important things for us to notice. 1. There are two qualifications in order for a person to come under this punishment. First, to worship or serve other gods but also to be in a generation that hates God. Unless you qualify on both counts this does not apply to you. 2. Indeed the next verse underlines this where the Lord will show lovingkindness to thousands who love Him and keep His commandments. 3. It is the Lord who does the visiting - it is not an AUTOMATIC punishment. It is what He does, not what membership to an organisation or even what the Devil does but what God does. 4. He is not saying how or what He will do but simply that He will visit or punish them for their sins. You can therefore never claim that a particular act is always the way God punishes because it does not tell us that and God is sovereign to punish but also to forgive.Exodus 34:6,7. This verse is nearly always quoted in the same breath as the one above but again there is nothing here to say that there is an automatic curse or judgement because someone has joined a particular group or committed a particular sin. Indeed this is the Lord speaking about Himself and before He comes to the judgmental side, He talks of forgiveness and lovingkindness and only then visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the third and fourth generations. Again in the context of the love of God it means that it is neither certain nor automatic. It will happen because God is a righteous and a jealous God but even in judgement, He remembers mercy and His judgements are just, not automatic retribution.Ezekiel 18:19-32. These verses are obviously referring to the people of Israel under the Old Covenant an how they acted and reacted (see verse 2). They seem to give positive acceptance to the fact that with true repentance and turning away from the sins of the father the fear of punishment is removed. We also see in the last few verses that even the danger of there being a stumbling block is removed and there is a possibility of a new heart and spirit. These verses must clearly be looked at when dealing with this subject.Having thus shown his understanding of the Biblical concepts of curses, Campbell develops this to show how so many are affected today. He uses the following illustration, The authority structure we want to focus on here as it relates to curses is the family, particularly the role of the father. Take the example of a father trying to be the priest of the home. He is the "spiritual covering" and provides an umbrella of spiritual protection over his family and loved ones. When the father is disobedient and sins, the umbrella of protection is ripped. Through that rip, the adversary is then able to saturate with oppressive storms in the form of demonic curses those under this father's authority and protection. According to Ephesians 4:27, when we sin, we open the door, or provide an entry point, for Satan. Essentially, we give him permission to oppress our loved ones. Through the unrighteousness of one in spiritual authority over others, curses can now visit to the third and fourth generation. Is this really true? Every time the father sins Satan can do what he likes to the family - does God abdicate? Where is this taught? When he confesses that sin, does that mean the protection is put back? Does Ephesians 4:27 teach this? In a word no because it is not dealing with the family but rather the individual and it certainly does not say that Satan can do whatever he likes but rather that he has an opportunity but it is no more specific than that. Authority-Engendered Curses Campbell now applies this teaching of what he calls "authority-engendered curses" to generation curses and shows the possible extent Exodus 34 tells us that curses pass to the third and fourth generations. Suppose a man commits the sin of idolatry. Further suppose that he and each of his descendants for four generations have three children each. This adds up to 40 descendants who will come under the curse of that one man's iniquity. Each person, by going backward on this generational chart, again has 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents and 16 great-great grandparents. This provides a total of 30 ancestors from whom curses could possibly have filtered down upon us.

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These are the curses that I call generational curses, and it's not unlikely that many of us are experiencing them rather than blessings because one or more of these ancestors have unwisely opened the door to our adversary. (pp.164/165) Despite this we still read the clear statement that Christ has redeemed us from these curses. No one's spiritual fate is sealed by another's decision-all of us are individually responsible for our own lives and are accountable to God. If any of the children of those who turn away from God repent from their wickedness and turn back to God, God will have mercy on them, forgiving them their sins, removing the curses upon them through the blood of Christ, filling them with the same Holy Spirit and making the same promises of "love to a thousand generations of those who love me" (Exod. 20:6). In other words, Christ enables all of us who have failed to love God with all our hearts and our neighbor as ourselves-that means all of us (see Matt. 22:37-39; Rom. 3:23; 6:23)-to acknowledge individually the responsibility for our sin, to repent and to be transformed by Christ. But we are still part of the human race and part of our own generational line. (p.166) This would appear to be the end of the matter but when we reach p.184, we read, The Hammonds remind us of a very important concept about deliverance from curses. They suggest that salvation does not automatically free us from curses, for many of God's children remain under curses even after they are born again. Why? They have not appropriated Christ's redemption from the curses. Jesus died for all, but all are not saved. To come to salvation, a person must repent of his or her sin and appropriate-or claim-the blood of Jesus. Although Christ is the remedy for generational curses, we must personally repent for the sin that brought the curses and then renounce the curses and appropriate His blood over these curses. Once again one must ask why the contradiction? If the root of the curse is sin as is clearly shown above then once sin - the root - has been dealt with then the curse - the consequence - must also be dealt with. If Christ became the curse then when I accept that and believe it the curse must be broken. Why do we make things more complicated than the Scripture ever did? Why do we want to make doctrines fit our thinking instead of allowing our thinking to be moulded by His doctrine? John Linden-Cook There are other aspects we need to deal with and these come out quite clearly in the second explanation of this doctrine that I want to check out - those of John Linden-Cook. However, he is but an example of many others at this time. The quotes here are from an email I received on 28 July 2000 from one of our supporters who both listened to Linden-Cook on Premier Christian radio and then spoke to him on the phone after the broadcast. The heart of this side of the teaching about 'Generational Curses' goes to a distinction made concerning the words 'iniquity' and 'sin'. Iniquity is thus defined in this teaching as occult worship, astrology and such like practices, whereas sin is breaking the commandments. This already leads to confusion because the 'iniquity of the fathers' that is visited on the third and fourth generations is as a result of breaking the commandment to have no other gods. Thus if we follow this thinking through, iniquity would be as a result of sin and if we dealt with the root sin then iniquity would also be dealt with. Interestingly this is the same conclusion as we arrived at above.However leaving aside this discrepancy, is there anything in the Biblical use of these words that could lead us to such a clear definition and distinction of 'sin' and 'iniquity'? We will turn to the definitions of Strong in his concordance for help in this matter. The main word for sin in Hebrew is chatta'ah which has the primary root of meaning 'to miss the mark.' Interestingly the primary word for sin in the Greek harmarta also comes from a root word meaning 'to fail to hit' or 'miss the mark.' Hence we have no problem of the Biblical meaning of sin throughout the Old and New Testaments. The primary word for iniquity in Hebrew is avown meaning perversity or evil. In Greek the word is anomia meaning a violation of the law from a root word meaning lawless. Clearly this is a stronger word than the word for sin but in its original context it would be better translated "breaking the commandments" and not sin, as we have above, which is aiming for something but missing the mark.Nowhere in the Old or New Testaments is there any teaching that restricts the word iniquity to "occult worship, astrology and such like practices."With the basis for the teaching already suspect it develops into what I believe is heresy. The next step is that only sin is dealt with by conversion - not iniquity. This can be seen as the 'spiritual' thinking behind the forgiveness of sin and not the removal of a curse shown above. Again, what does Scripture teach us on this matter? Please read just the few scriptures below with comments and see what you think. In the original language, each verse uses the words mentioned above. Hebrews 10:17 - God makes no distinctions between the two. Titus 2:14 - Christ gave Himself to redeem us from all iniquities.Isaiah 53:6 - Our iniquities were placed on the Lamb of God. ConclusionMartin Yarde's concludes, It is not important to discover whether the causes of problems in our lives have their origin in previous generations. Such a quest can all too easily become a cop out from dealing with the real reasons for these problems or a way of trying to manipulate God into blessing us in certain ways. Or we might be unwilling to face the fact that God is sovereign and may have a reason for allowing some types of suffering in our lives. Instead we can rest peacefully and secure in the knowledge that God's plans for our lives and the blessings he has for us are dependent on Him, not ourselves and cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2).To this I would want to add that, as I started by saying, there maybe and most certainly are other issues concerning this teaching and I would be glad to hear from any that want to raise them. However, I have tried to deal with the basic issues as I see them and measure them against Scripture. The conclusion has to be that man is making far more of this doctrine than Scripture does and as such it could be dangerous. Whereas it would be foolish to say it never happens it certainly does not happen with the frequency we are being led to believe by so many Bible teachers.Please therefore be cautious over what you believe and what you say to other Christians. Please be clear that whatever you believe and teach can be built on the firm foundation of Scripture and not individual Scriptures taken out of context and Greek and Hebrew words given meanings that they did not have in the original.

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Registered: Jan 2003
Location: IN A FALLEN WORLD
Posts: 96

Darth, don't your fingers hurt!!!!!!!!! and talk about spelling where's that nominating thread again(lol)

Excellent reading shame about my eye sight

ps. Are you sure you did not leave nothing out,may be you need prayer about a spelling curse, may be you looked at a goat funney and you are now paying for it.


Yours in jail Lady M

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Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Newport, South Wales GB
Posts: 306

Thankyou Dave - your answers and the article about generational curses have been very helpful and enlightening. In contrary to Lady M's eyesight that has gone a bit funny - mine has become a bit clearer

In Jesus
Sonja

PS: Don't ever look at a goat funny and that includes you too Lady M!!

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Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 91

Dave,

This Generational Cursing, does it have to do with the verses in Ex 20 vs 5. "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and fourth generations of those who hate me." Is this where they get this generational cursing thing?



But it seems to me that there were those who used this out of context even then because it says in Jeremiah 31 vs 29-30: "In those days they will not say again, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge. But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eat the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge. Behold, days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."

Also in Ezekiel 18 vs 2-3: "what do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel saying, The father eat the sour grapes, But the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, declares the Lord God, you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore.




So in Christ one is set free from this, you are bound no longer.

In Christ

Vee

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Registered: Oct 2002
Location: North Attleboro, Massachusetts
Posts: 57

Dave,

Underneath your name are the words, "Darth Dave Sith Master."

Is this in reference to the highly occultic Star Wars?

http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/s...ot19990820.html

I hope not. I am just asking.

Thank you,

Lisa Ruby

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Registered: Oct 2002
Location: North Attleboro, Massachusetts
Posts: 57

More about the Sith Master:

An ancient order of Force-practitioners devoted to the dark side and determined to destroy the Jedi, the Sith were a menace long thought extinct. The current incarnation of the Sith is the result of a rogue Jedi dissident from the order. Two thousand years ago, this Jedi had come to the understanding that the true power of the Force lay not through contemplation and passivity. Only by tapping its dark side could its true potential be gained. The Jedi Council at the time balked at this new direction. The Dark Jedi was outcast, but he eventually gained followers to his new order. Awakening beliefs from the dark past, the new Sith cult continued to grow. With the promise of new powers attainable by tapping into the hateful energies of the dark side, it was only a matter of time before the order self-destructed. Internecine struggle by power-hungry Sith practioners dwindled their numbers.

One Sith had the cunning to survive. Darth Bane restructured the cult, so that there could only be two -- no more, no less -- a master, and an apprentice. Bane adopted cunning, subterfuge, and stealth as the fundamental tenets of the Sith order. Bane took an apprentice. When that apprentice succeeded him, that new Sith Lord would take an apprentice.

Thus, the Sith quietly continued for centuries, until the time of Darth Sidious and his apprentice, Darth Maul. By that time, the galaxy at large had believed the Sith to be extinct, a fabled threat from the past. Qui-Gon Jinn's report of a Sith attack on Tatooine was met by the Jedi Council with hesitation and skepticism. Surely if the Sith had returned, the Jedi would have detected it, they reasoned.

The dark side, for all its power, is ultimately hard to detect when required. A shadowy master like Darth Sidious was able to keep his presence a secret, even when sharing a world with the Jedi Temple.

With the death of Darth Maul at Naboo, the Jedi Council realized that the Sith menace was true. What they hadn't puzzled was whether Maul was the master, or the apprentice. Years would pass before the Sith menace arose once more, a menace that would eventually come to engulf the entire galaxy.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/or...sith/index.html

Lisa Ruby

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God won't do a bit more through you than you have faith for. Rees Howells

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Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Springs South Africa
Posts: 211

Yes Lisa
I am he!
I have come to earth to conquer this puny world only to find a darker side at work here. Many already follow the dark side, but I. Darth Dave, will have them all! HAHAHAHAHA

LUV

Darth

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Registered: Dec 2002
Location: londinium
Posts: 363

quote:

---

There are many on this board who have me saying “O Brother” many times but I value their input.

---

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shlom

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Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Springs South Africa
Posts: 211

Get back in line and stop nagging!

May the force be with you, keep hold of your lucky Rabbits foot and remember - listen this is important advice from a Sith Lord.

If you stand on a nick youll marry a brick and a Beatle will come to your wedding.

Dont mock theres real power in these things!

Darth

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Registered: Oct 2002
Location: North Attleboro, Massachusetts
Posts: 57

Dave,


Would you please explain how identifying yourself with an occultic character--a Sith Master-- is glorifying to the Lord Jesus Christ?

Your positions are Pastor of Aletheia CC and Director of Moriel Missions South Africa.

I am assuming that Moriel is in agreement with you being in leadership with them and promoting the occultic Star Wars by the phrase you have chosen to identify yourself with. Is that correct?

Are occult-themed movies pleasing to the Lord Jesus Christ? If not, then why are you identifying yourself with one? Is the occult a joke to the Lord Jesus Christ? Is it a joke to you and also another moderator on this forum? What is going on here?

Lisa Ruby
Liberty To The Captives

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God won't do a bit more through you than you have faith for. Rees Howells

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Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Bedford, New Hampshire, USA
Posts: 2102

I hope you can understand that this is a food sacrificed to idol situation.

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. Therefore concdrning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, but that there is no other God but one. ....However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with conscieousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled....But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak....therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

For Dave, myself, and others on this board, the Star Wars characters are just a story. They have no power over us, they do not pull us into the occult. When I first saw Dave's avatar, I thought it was funny. I myself do not associate Star Wars with the occult.

For you, Lisa, this is a conscience issue. You do not see this in the same way. When you see these avatars, you DO see the occult. For that I am sorry, and have no wish myself to cause a stumbling block for you.

I will edit out my joke in the prayer list. I am sorry that you have been offended.

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Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 405

Lisa

I understand your fretting as you have looked at so many issues and received letters from so many people but I think you are misunderstanding a light heartedness as a thumbs up to evil. I watched the original Star Wars as a teenager and thought "long, drawn-out, great special affects" but what impressed upon me was that evil is evil and good is good (good triumphs over evil). The same with Lord of the Rings. I have only seen the first film but dare I say it left the impression that evil is ugly (different to Harry Potter where the good guy is the practicing wizard). Many things have to be taken into consideration. The type of writing. Lord of the Rings, for instance was a whole imaginary world, pure fantasy and Tolkein himself said it wasn't suppose to be put in any other category. The thing with it is that good triumphs over evil. The ring, the symbolism is only to add interest to the story. The man was a genius who wrote a whole language and invented a world, not to be taken seriously, but as a literary adventure.

Not everything has to be in neat little boxes. "This is evil, it must be occultic. This is good, it must be God." It is very cultic to have everything drawn up so circumspect with no consideration that some things are innocuous.

Is Dave promoting evil? - no! Is he telling us that we should watch the movie? - no! He is however finding the character amusing! seems to be!

There has to be a balance in our lives otherwise we lose the plot. There is a difference between being watchful and being paranoid.

There are more important things than knowing the nitty-gritty ins and outs of a ducks guts. Excuse the pun but isn't it more important to see what's there. Like with Dave. What is it promoting? What is he saying? Not what was behind that? What is he really saying?

Tania

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Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Springs South Africa
Posts: 211

Sorry Lisa!
My grandad was a freemason. My Grandma Took drugs, My uncle was a Roman Catholic and my mum had her palm read by Gypsy Rose Lee.
Listen I have taken great time and effort and so have others to show you through scripture that you believe nonsense, in fact you and your ilk give more power and glory to Satan than he has.
Read the material, argue biblically and I will take your comments seriously.

May the force be with you

Darth

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Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Newport, South Wales GB
Posts: 306

I don't mean to pour any more oil on the fire, but I do see a danger coming from sites like 'Last trumpet' or 'Cutting Edge Ministries', in that these people's minds dwell so much on conspiracy and the forces of darkness that you could indeed get paranoid and see behind everything the devil at work.
We are told in the Scriptures to dwell our minds on whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your mind dwell on these things. The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things; and the God of peace shall be with you. (Philippians 4:8-9).

I recognise more and more (also through what was discussed in this thread) the importance of what Beth has written in another thread:

quote:
I also see, Jeff, the importance of a return to the Jewish interpretation of the Bible....midrash...as helping the church regain a deeper understanding of Scripture. The hellenizing of the Bible has led to so many errors and diversity of interpretations among Christians.
unquote.


Love, Sonja

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Registered: Oct 2002
Location: North Attleboro, Massachusetts
Posts: 57

Dave,

"The Force" is Satan. You are saying may Satan be with me. Ha, ha. This is so funny in the sight of the Lord Jesus Christ, right? No, it is not, but someone approves. Who does?

I have just learned that the Midrach is promoted and studied here at Moriel.

What is the Midrash? Well, in searches the word appears pretty consistently with the Talmud, Jewish Mysticism and the Kabbalah. In fact, the Midrash is a part of the Talmud, correct?

What is Moriel's definition of the Midrash and what does this have to do with Jewish mysticism-- Kabbalah?

Does Moriel teach Midrash ha-Ne'elam (Secret Midrash) which is Kabbalistic? See http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Rel...hMysticism.html

Also, does Moriel presently have any articles warning against Jewish Mysticism and the Kabbalah?

Lisa Ruby
Liberty To The Captives

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God won't do a bit more through you than you have faith for. Rees Howells

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Registered: Oct 2002
Location: North Attleboro, Massachusetts
Posts: 57

Beth wrote, "For Dave, myself, and others on this board, the Star Wars characters are just a story. They have no power over us, they do not pull us into the occult."

I never said Star Wars pulls anyone into the occult. I asked Dave if his identification of himself with an occultic character (Sith Master) is glorifying to the Lord Jesus Christ. I asked if Jesus thought this was funny. No answer.

Dave does not need any help. Let him answer, please.

Lisa

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God won't do a bit more through you than you have faith for. Rees Howells

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Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 405

RU Serious Lisa??

Stick with the topic - answer was Dave said instead of avoiding it by another tangent.

Unbelievable - do your homework properly about midrash. The same as what I said before if some Kaballah wacko says they use midrash doesn't mean that someone that uses the hermeneutics (not mystercism) like Jacob does is in the same basket. Yep, I'm sure your going to tell me to keep out of this too.

We've done about Kaballah:

http://ww2.moriel.org:8004/forum/sh...ghlight=madonna

Tania

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Registered: Oct 2002
Location: North Attleboro, Massachusetts
Posts: 57

Thanks for the link, Tania. Lady Gooner does not WARN against the Kabbalah at all. She explains why people study it.

Also, she does not like it when people describe the Kabbalah in a negative way:

"A further factor was the degeneration (in the eyes of their rationalist opponents) of 18th. century Hasidism, which had roots both in Kabbalah and Shabbateanism, into "wonder working" and superstition. The rationalist faction in Judaism triumphed, and the study of Kabbalah became largely discredited, to the extent that many Jewish publications written earlier in this century discuss Kabbalah (if at all) in a very negative way."

Lisa Ruby

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God won't do a bit more through you than you have faith for. Rees Howells

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Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA USA
Posts: 884

I think it's time for everyone here to take a step back. We have posted a sticky thread on every forum of our rules and regulations. Everyone that is a member agreed to abide by the rules coming to this Board. We are all Christians here and are to love one another. We are to respect each other as well.

All this arguing is over a secondary issue. Salvation is a primary issue. We were talking about a movie. It went into symbols. If you feel convicted over a symbol, that's fine. That is between you & God. But you can't force your opinion onto others. And you cannot get so angry over all of this. God is love. Division is not of God. Each presented points but that's all you can do.

This Board is not an ordinary Message Board. It is Moriel's Message Board and part of our ministry. I will not have no one put a wedge among the members over a secondary issue and have all the arguing. It is uncalled for and unChristlike.

We value everyone's opinions here and everyone is invited to share their beliefs. But we cannot allow our emotions to take over. I am therefore, locking this thread. I feel all has been said that can be said.

In Jesus,

Carol Champion
Moriel USA

Last edited by Carol Champion on 26th February 2003 at 12:32 AM

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